Discussion:
French or German Point?
(too old to reply)
Phil Fites
2003-08-10 15:02:22 UTC
Permalink
I've tried several epee tips and have used the Allstar/Uhlmann
German ones for several years. They seem to be better machined,
especially in the inside of the barrel, and to me have a smoother
feel. Also, the German screws seem to be less prone to stripping
of threads or screwdriver slots and to hold better.

It probably doesn't make a lot of difference which points you
use--but keep it consistent! Some of the parts don't mix well
from one make to another. And of course, use proper tools and
keep everything clean for ANY point. Invest in hollow ground
screwdrivers that fit the tip screws exactly, it'll save you far
more time and aggravation than the difference in cost.
I am about to buy my daughter some electric foils. I am an epeeist and have
used French points exclusively. The club where she takes lessons recommends
German points. Is there any consensus on one type of point being better than
the other? I am considering getting her German points just to keep things
standard with her club.
Thanks,
Joel Solomon
Peter Harrison
2003-08-10 15:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Hoo boy! Let's talk religion instead.

Seriously, though, I do a lot of the foil repairs for the kids in our club.
We used to use mostly French, now we use mostly German. Some pros and cons.

German costs about twice as much as French.
German tips are machined better, so run slightly more smoothly (according to
that religion). This means that an angled hit is more likely to set off the
machine.
Some old French tips (orange plastic insulation) do not last very long.
French barrels are much stronger than German, and last much longer. German
barrels tend to get dented. This requires rewiring the weapon.
German screws stick out a bit, and the head is smaller than the French, so
that the screws tend to get mangled. This can make getting them out pretty
difficult at times.
There are some new French tips (Sport 7), with which I have no experience,
but another club member swears are machined as well as German. He reckons
that they have the strengths of both French and German tips, but not the
weaknesses. Of course, the parts are just a teeny bit different, so that
exchangability (?sp) is probably not feasible with traditional French parts.

If you do your own repairs, I do not think it that important to match the
majority of the club, or even if you don't, as long as the person who does
do them keeps both sets of spares. BUT, make sure you do match the club
standard for socket/body cord - dual prong vs. bayonet. While people seldom
"borrow" a tip, they do borrow weapons and body cords.

Good luck
Peter
I am about to buy my daughter some electric foils. I am an epeeist and
have
used French points exclusively. The club where she takes lessons
recommends
German points. Is there any consensus on one type of point being better
than
the other? I am considering getting her German points just to keep things
standard with her club.
Thanks,
Joel Solomon
Alison1daland
2003-08-11 02:07:50 UTC
Permalink
French is cheaper. German tend to be "better" in terms of quality, maintenance,
longevity, and standardization between manufacturers. Alot of people also swear
by screwless tips. From the most practical standpoint though, if the majority
of the team/ club stuff is one type, go for that type. if something breaks it
is easier to replace it quickly in tournaments or at practice. (This is
especially good advice when choosing bayonet or 2 prong)
David Neevel
2003-08-11 02:56:29 UTC
Permalink
German points are machined to tighter tolerances, which make them smoother and
more likely to light on
glancing touches. For that reason they are preferred by just about every
higher-level competitor (if you ever
go along with a national team as armorer, you could forget your french foil
points at home and never miss them).
The tips of Uhlmann/Allstar point are also more durable than french tips
(especially Prieur tips). The standard
german barrels are thinner walled than french barrels and more susceptible to
damage (either dents which interfere
with the tip depressing, or cracks in the barrel if tightened down too hard).
Uhlmann has introduced a new alloy barrel
(designated "V2A") to remedy the durability problems. It costs twice as much as
the standard barrel, but will save you having
to rewire a weapon due to the barrel being dented. The other issue with german
points is the well known vulnerability to damaged
screws. The screws thread into the side of the barrel (rather than the tip
collar), and the thinness of the barrel walls means
that, in order to have enough thread depth, the screw-heads can't be countersunk
flush with the barrel. The projecting
screw-heads can be damaged in fencing, and if the slot is completely destroyed
the screw becomes well-nigh impossible to
remove, and you end up having to rewire the weapon with a whole new point the
next time the spring goes light. You can
minimize the risk of this by checking the condition of the screws regularly and
replacing them at the first sign of damage, and
putting a little extra piece of tip tape around the barrel right where the screws
are to provide extra protection. If you don't
tighten the screws down too hard (the tip tape will ensure they stay in), they
will be easier to remove on if they do get damaged.

Prieur points don't have the metal sleeve over the insulation on the tip (just
exposed white plastic), and between
that and looser tolerances they aren't as good at going off on glancing touches.
The other big problem with Prieur tips
is that the soft brass flange that holds the tip together will begin to come
unpeened after a little while. When the peening is just
a little loose, it can produce off-target lights as the flange wobbles and
momentarily breaks contact with either the collar or
the spring. When the flange comes completely unpeened, the head of the tip will
fall out while the flange and collar stay in the
point-- this means that you won't be able to score touches, but the weapon also
won't be throwing off-targets to indicate something
wrong. The peening can be fixed once or twice using a center-punch or nail-set,
but ultimately you need to replace the tip.
The exposed plastic insulation of the tip is also more easily damaged. Prieur
barrels are thicker and of softer steel than the
standard german barrels-- they're less vulnerable to cracking, and dents on the
outer surface are far less likely to carry over to the
interior.

To further muddy the waters, there is another commonly available french point
made by Sport 7. This uses a metal sleeve for the
tip like the german points. It's not as smooth as Uhlmann/Allstar points, but is
better than Prieur points. The tips are less prone to coming
unpeened (although it still happens). The barrels are more brittle than either
the Prieur or Uhlmann/Allstar barrels. I've seen a number of
Sport 7 barrels that had cracked due to over-tightening, and then broken
completely in two when struck during fencing. Sport 7 parts are not
quite compatible with Prieur parts-- you need to know which "french" point a
vendor sells before ordering spare parts (Blue Gauntlet and now
American Fencers Supply carry Sport 7, Santelli and The Fencing Post carry
Prieur).

I personally use German (real German-- Uhlmann/Allstar) points with the V2A
barrels. If you order point parts direct from germany
through Fechtsport Langenkamp (www.fechtsport-langenkamp.de) you can save a
bundle (check their PDF price sheet for their
VAT-less export prices). You need to order in sufficient quantity to justify the
shipping costs, but with what US vendors charge for German
parts that's not too tough.

-Dave
I am about to buy my daughter some electric foils. I am an epeeist and have
used French points exclusively. The club where she takes lessons recommends
German points. Is there any consensus on one type of point being better than
the other? I am considering getting her German points just to keep things
standard with her club.
Thanks,
Joel Solomon
Joel Solomon
2003-08-12 00:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for all of your advice. I am starting to lean towards German tips for
my daughter's foils. I have my own old collection of French-tipped epees and
foils, which I will continue to stand pat with.

Looking Forward to Coming Out of Fencing Retirement Again,

Joel

Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...